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#31 Diep

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 12:47 PM

QUOTE (David Hatfield @ Aug 16 2005, 12:48 PM)
The times I'm going off of a little more than you guys (Danimal, Torrey, and Jeff) are John & Tom, since I've done more track workouts with them, and seem to be closer to their speed (though John seems to have improved of late, and I haven't run as much with Tom, since he hasn't been running as much.)  Two years ago I was significantly better than I am now, and my best 5K was a 16:35.  (I throw out a 16:16 as unreliable, because it was an outlier - all my other races were 16:40's & 16:50's at the time.)  Therefore I have a hard time believing John & Tom ran 16:16 & 16:23, respectively, 'cause I feel that would put them much faster than my current level.  Also there's Jim Ney who ran a 16:55, and I've been consistently faster than him.

I can't speak for any of the others but be careful when comparing my times. At Iris fest I had been running for less than 3 months. At RHW I ran a new PR in my 4th ever 10k and was in much better shape than anything before. I also had more left in the tank than I realized. Still learning how to race that distance. Yes I may have PR'd by 30 seconds (maybe grin.png ) but I also beat a PR set when I was 17, about as developed as a 14 year old, and on 3 months training tops. I'm easily in the best shape of my life as I have been training with consistent volume and intensity for 6 straight months, something I've never done before. I try not to make too grand of predictions for myself as Torrey and Win have suggested, but I know that I am certainly capable of going sub 16, I was pleasantly suprised with my time at crawfish but not shocked. In fact I could have ran even better. Torrey told me that I went to school on the last half mile of this race. I learned an important lesson on mental toughness when I eased up ever so slightly at the turn and ended up losing 15 seconds on him. Next time I will be there Torrey!

#32 Diep

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 12:50 PM

QUOTE (David Hatfield @ Aug 16 2005, 02:21 AM)
Jeff D 16:10 (your RHW 35:15 predicts a 16:57).

The results misrepresent my actual finishing time. I can't claim anything faster than 16:18 for this race. I had 16:20 on my watch

#33 Diep

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 12:52 PM

QUOTE (Torrey @ Aug 15 2005, 01:55 PM)
Jeff - from now on, you can be the one who elaborates  wink.gif

David is just jealous that he couldn't come out and run a 5K PR himself, since he was too busy preparing for their epic run around Crater Lake.



QUOTE (Torrey @ Aug 16 2005, 12:27 PM)
1. The course was laid out, measured, re-measured, and re-measured again by Rob Finnigan.  If anyone knows Rob, they know he may be more "detail-oriented" than David.  Since this is the 3rd time I've run the course, I know it was identical to last year's course.  Brandon Workman won the race last year as well, and was only a couple second faster this year, so the course would have had to been short last year as well (I know he has run at least 14:46).


Now this is the elaboration I was talking about.. grin.png

#34 Rick Lovett

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 02:02 PM

QUOTE (David Hatfield @ Aug 16 2005, 12:48 PM)
I don't have a good sense of the benefit of drafting, but it doesn't seem to help that much (e.g. not 10 seconds a mile.)  I ran 16:57 at Hayward this year after drafting behind one person for over half the race, and was chasing another runner the rest of the way, and was hurting more than usual at the finish.  Going in I was expecting to run 17:05 to 17:10, based on my track workouts, so I don't think the drafting and competition helped me that much.  I have run races with and without people, and haven't noticed much difference in my times.  Maybe my performances, based on my style etc., are significantly more consistent than most people's.


I assume in Alberto's race he didn't PR by 10 secs a mile. wink.gif

p.p.s. Torrey, your Stayton time predicts an even slower 5K, over 17:15.  But that was a hilly course...


Hmm, taking things in reverse order, looks like you might just have made a good case that Torry is peaking. Most of us aren't as consistent as your times apparently were. Back in the 80s in the Midwest, I could hit a lot of 38:30-ish good days, but I also had times that were more on the order of 39:00+. I figured it was me: good day vs bad one. Short courses are really rare in other parts of the country, as are long ones, so I figured that in equivalent shape, I had +/- 10 sec/mile of innate variablity. And by the standards of my friends, I was pretty consistent.

Re Alberto, I have no idea. It was a 5-miler. and, like Hatfield, he always wondered whether it was a short course. The record might still stand. Who races 5 miles at that level? But it was also a certified course, and they swore up and down it was accurate....and the record stood.

Finally, re drafting. There is exercise physiology data from running on treadmills into fans that there's not much drafting advantage (actually the studies say zero) below a wind speed of 16 kph. So drafting on a calm day isn't worth much--certainly not as much as in cycling.

But CHASING...that's a whole different matter. Psychologically it's tons easier to hold pace while chasing because all you have to do is go on autopilot. And of course, motivation is higher...


Sorry about all the typos...I'm getting a weird 2-sec delay between keyboard and screen. Some other program wants my attention, badly. Better see to it...


Rick

#35 Jeff Huber

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 02:27 PM

If no one else plans to, I'd love to go measure the course and I promise to be fastidious about it. Anyone have a wheel they could lend me? My accelerometer watch doesn't have sufficient accuracy. I have a WASS-enabled GPS I could use though that's a pain and I’d rather trust the wheel. I live fairly close so it's no problem for me to do, however I'm going to be out of town this weekend and next week so I probably couldn’t get it done until two weeks from now.

I assume whoever set the course left some sort of permanent mark for the finish, start and turnaround points, right? What will these marks look like? I remember roughly where these points are but I'd like to be as precise as possible.

#36 Father Goose

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 08:50 PM

I currently have Paul Thomas' wheel in my garage (next to the club singlets but not next to the free marathon entries, which are next to my pc). Is there anything someone needs that I don't have??

Oh yeah, Steve Sexton has the canopy and Steve Sanders has the guillotine. grin.png
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#37 David Hatfield

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 09:38 PM

QUOTE (Diep @ Aug 16 2005, 01:29 PM)
A 1000:1 Payout?  You can't be serious.  Even if I thought the course was 30 seconds slow I'd still try this just becuase you can't beat the odds...


10,000:1 payout? Not that Lincoln, the other one. happy.png

I'm thinking of doing a 5K time trial at Lincoln this Saturday at 8pm to see where I'm at. Anyone is welcome to join me. Or suggest a different time.
I could dig deeper..., but then I'd be further in a hole.

#38 Father Goose

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 05:54 AM

QUOTE (David Hatfield @ Aug 16 2005, 09:38 PM)
10,000:1 payout?  Not that Lincoln, the other one. happy.png

I'm thinking of doing a 5K time trial at Lincoln this Saturday at 8pm to see where I'm at.  Anyone is welcome to join me.  Or suggest a different time.


I think in plain American English David is saying that if anyone from the Crawfish Crawl can run their time on the track at Lincoln (or better) then David will give them a bill with Ben Franklin on it ($100). If you fail, you must give David a bill with Abe Lincoln on it ($5).

Is that right? Guys, come on!! How often are you able to pick up $100 cash in a race you don't even have to win?? And if you don't make it, you're only out $5!! Less than you'll ever pay for a 5k race.

Whats not to like???
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#39 steve sanders

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 07:31 AM

Considering that I might actually NOT get lost on the track, I will take the bet that I can run my time from the crawl....Bring on the Franklin David! tongue.gif










QUOTE (Father Goose @ Aug 17 2005, 06:54 AM)
I think in plain American English David is saying that if anyone from the Crawfish Crawl can run their time on the track at Lincoln (or better) then David will give them a bill with Ben Franklin on it ($100). If you fail, you must give David a bill with Abe Lincoln on it ($5).

Is that right? Guys, come on!! How often are you able to pick up $100 cash in a race you don't even have to win?? And if you don't make it, you're only out $5!! Less than you'll ever pay for a 5k race.

Whats not to like???


#40 David Hatfield

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 09:33 AM

QUOTE (steve sanders @ Aug 17 2005, 08:31 AM)
Considering that I might actually NOT get lost on the track, I will take the bet that I can run my time from the crawl....Bring on the Franklin David! tongue.gif


Offer doesn't apply to Mr. Sanders, unless he promises to lose track of the laps and run one extra. grin.png
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#41 Torrey

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 10:31 AM

QUOTE (David Hatfield @ Aug 16 2005, 11:48 AM)
p.p.s. Torrey, your Stayton time predicts an even slower 5K, over 17:15.  But that was a hilly course...


My mental state at Stayton was that I just wanted to finish. But I think I've stated on numerous occassions that this former 800 runner hates the 10K. But I do feel like the 5K has become a distance I am beginnign to master. So, I would never use a 10K to predict a 5K time for myself, since I've only ever felt good about one 10K I've run in my life, and that was several years ago when I ran 34:30. I don't think I was in nearly as good of shape, but I had good conditions for running well - I was solidly chasing the leaders and "running scared" at the same time (since there were a couple guys behind me whom I didn't want to beat me). And yes, I relaize that would still only give me a predicted 5K time of 16:33. But try these on for size:
- my 400 m and 800m PR should have me running 14:29, 14:30
- my Guillotine mile time would predict 16:08
- my 50K race time would predict a 27:54
- my run around Mt Adams this past Sunday (same weekend as Crawfish, so you would think this would be the most accurate predictor, since my fitness level is the same) would predict a 57:00 5K

So, I was either way faster than I should have been, right on, or have a lot of potential improvement, depending upon what prediction you want to look at.

I think Joe T. and Rick both made great points about not being able to use predictors and peaking when conditions are right. I've been training more consistently over the past year than I have since college. So, with the following all in place:
1. Being in good racing shape,
2. Great course and perfect weather conditions,
3. Having good competition to chase (Danimal wasn't far in front of me),
4. Having someone close by that I didn't want to beat me (sorry Diep), and
5. I've been planning to hit a PR at this race for the past year.

I ran well at Crawfish last year (yes, it was only ~16:40, but I was focusing a lot more on my flyfishing-K), and so this 5K has been on my radar screen for a year. We all have those races that we gear up for, and this has been mine for a long time. Angela can probably tell you that I've had 2 seemingly conflicting running goals stated since I finished my marathon in February - to race a 50K in the same year I PR in the 5K. And this was the 5K race I was planning to do it at. Mission accomplished.

But I do look forward to seeing what Jeff (or anyone else who wants to bring a wheel out there) finds. I don't think there were any marks on the pavement, but perhaps there were marks that the cones and mile marker sandwich boards were sitting on top of.

#42 Daniel

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 12:23 PM

QUOTE (Torrey @ Aug 17 2005, 10:31 AM)
My mental state at Stayton was that I just wanted to finish.  But I think I've stated on numerous occassions that this former 800 runner hates the 10K.  But I do feel like the 5K has become a distance I am beginnign to master.  So, I would never use a 10K to predict a 5K time for myself, since I've only ever felt good about one 10K I've run in my life, and that was several years ago when I ran 34:30.  I don't think I was in nearly as good of shape, but  I had good conditions for running well - I was solidly chasing the leaders and "running scared" at the same time (since there were a couple guys behind me whom I didn't want to beat me).  And yes, I relaize that would still only give me a predicted 5K time of 16:33.  But try these on for size:
- my 400 m and 800m PR should have me running 14:29, 14:30
- my Guillotine mile time would predict 16:08
- my 50K race time would predict a 27:54
- my run around Mt Adams this past Sunday (same weekend as Crawfish, so you would think this would be the most accurate predictor, since my fitness level is the same) would predict a 57:00 5K

So, I was either way faster than I should have been, right on, or have a lot of potential improvement, depending upon what prediction you want to look at.

I think Joe T. and Rick both made great points about not being able to use predictors and peaking when conditions are right.  I've been training more consistently over the past year than I have since college.  So, with the following all in place:
1. Being in good racing shape,
2. Great course and perfect weather conditions,
3. Having good competition to chase (Danimal wasn't far in front of me),
4. Having someone close by that I didn't want to beat me (sorry Diep), and
5. I've been planning to hit a PR at this race for the past year. 

I ran well at Crawfish last year (yes, it was only ~16:40, but I was focusing a lot more on my flyfishing-K), and so this 5K has been on my radar screen for a year.  We all have those races that we gear up for, and this has been mine for a long time.  Angela can probably tell you that I've had 2 seemingly conflicting running goals stated since I finished my marathon in February - to race a 50K in the same year I PR in the 5K.  And this was the 5K race I was planning to do it at.  Mission accomplished.

But I do look forward to seeing what Jeff (or anyone else who wants to bring a wheel out there) finds.  I don't think there were any marks on the pavement, but perhaps there were marks that the cones and mile marker sandwich boards were sitting on top of.




I would like to add the fact that I too was focussing on this race as well with a goal to break 16:00 or face losing a personal bet with serious negative ramifications for me. I actually tapered for the event and took two days rest. So I was rested and mentally prepared to hammer out a solid 5K.

Great Job Torrey on reaching your goals.

Danimal angry.gif

#43 NextLizard_Tiger Paul_*

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 02:08 PM

Okay.. for crying out loud.. enough about running!

How were the crawfish? Sheez...

What's with this town.. doesn't anybody know how to eat, drink and pass a good time, cher?

#44 Daniel

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 02:19 PM

Tigre Pablo,

I was afraid to eat the crawfish as I didn't want to be cursed by you canjun folk!

Danimal angry.gif

#45 David Hatfield

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE (Torrey @ Aug 17 2005, 11:31 AM)
- my 400 m and 800m PR should have me running 14:29, 14:30
- my Guillotine mile time would predict 16:08
- my 50K race time would predict a 27:54
- my run around Mt Adams this past Sunday (same weekend as Crawfish, so you would think this would be the most accurate predictor, since my fitness level is the same) would predict a 57:00 5K

So, I was either way faster than I should have been, right on, or have a lot of potential improvement, depending upon what prediction you want to look at.


I'll accept "right on". I think you read the wrong column on the pace calculator. 16:08 is the 3-mile prediction based on a 4:50 mile. wink.gif (16:45 is the 5K prediction.) I'll also accept that folks have gotten faster, but I'm still guessing the course was at least 100m short.

Pace calculators are just estimates (based on other runners.) But I've found some of them to be pretty good at predicting my times (when I run distances that I've trained for.)

I think you guys are overestimating the benefits of a great race situation. (fyi, Alberto's 5-mile road record is 22:03, in 1981. His 10K track record is 27:25, in 1982, which predicts a 21:52 5-mile time, i.e. faster than his road record. I don't know the time of day, etc. of his 10K race.)

I'm all for goals!, but realistic ones. Just because you are serious about a goal, doesn't mean you'll achieve it.

My typical 5K workout is 6 x 800 at 10 sec/mile faster than 5K race pace, with a 200 jog at half speed (i.e. half the time that it takes to run the 800.) This workout and my 5K race times have matched closely. Rick's 6 x 800 workouts are faster (M pace) with a 400 recovery. Danimal, did you do workouts that are in line with a 15:48 5K? I.e. 6 x 800 in 2:27 with a 200 recovery in 1:14, or 6 x 800 in 2:23 with a 400 recovery. I realize not all people are the same...

p.s. I don't know about the crawfish, but IBS' shrimp scampi and couscous at Diamond Lake was awesome.

Edited by David Hatfield, 19 August 2005 - 01:48 PM.

I could dig deeper..., but then I'd be further in a hole.




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