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Fall Marathon Training Thread


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#31 BrianD

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 09:24 PM

@Tim I think those 800s are a statistical outlier. Leading up to Boston I was consistently in the 2:38-2:42 range. I haven't done anything since to make me think that I've suddenly gained the fountain of youth for speed. Will be interesting to see what my 400s look like this weekend.

@Andi I'm not really sure on a goal time yet. I usually have multi-tiered goals when it comes to marathons but this time around there is just so much up in the air (travel, taking care of two kids, relatively recent injuries) I'm trying to keep my mind open and expectations low. I was in 2:55 (at least) shape for NYC last year but not sure that'll be there this year. Mainly I want to go, have a good time, finish healthy and if I'm able to requalify for Boston, break 3 again, potentially PR and maybe, just maybe take a crack at that 2:55 # (in no particular order), well that wouldn't be so bad :-)
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#32 lmtortor

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 12:04 PM

OK. Here goes. My first 'real' week of training since the Green Bay Marathon debacle.

Monday- 5.5 easy (bailed on track workout)
Tuesday- 400 x 8 and 200 x 8 (alternating) with 200m recovery. 400s all in :86 aside from one in :87. 200s all in :42, aside from one in :43. 9.5 miles total.
Wednesday- 11 easy +lift/core
Thursday- 9 miles with 4 @ T. T miles-- 6:35, 6:48, 6:42, 6:45.
Friday- 7 miles recovery on trails
Saturday- a.m. 8 miles easy (~8/mi); p.m 4 miles easy (7:45-8/mi)
+lift,core
Sunday- 16 miles w/5 mi progression, next 11 miles w/ 1 mi hard (~6:50), 1/2mi easy.

total- 70 miles



Overall, a solid start. It felt great to be running fast (by my standards) again. Monday, I had planned to do track, but even on the warmup, I felt flat. I had been moving and lifting all day, had a crappy night sleep on Sunday and didn't even get out until 3p. I tried 2 repeats and wisely bailed.

Sunday's long run came after a late night on Sat at Steve's. I went to bed after 2a. I let myself sleep in (not an easy feat for me), bc I figured that would give me a better shot of having a good run. It was a little toasty out, but all in all, I felt pretty good.

The move to Boston may be good in the sense that I will have no friends, and thus, no distractions...

#33 billa

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 08:13 PM

@Tim I think those 800s are a statistical outlier. Leading up to Boston I was consistently in the 2:38-2:42 range. I haven't done anything since to make me think that I've suddenly gained the fountain of youth for speed. Will be interesting to see what my 400s look like this weekend.

@Andi I'm not really sure on a goal time yet. I usually have multi-tiered goals when it comes to marathons but this time around there is just so much up in the air (travel, taking care of two kids, relatively recent injuries) I'm trying to keep my mind open and expectations low. I was in 2:55 (at least) shape for NYC last year but not sure that'll be there this year. Mainly I want to go, have a good time, finish healthy and if I'm able to requalify for Boston, break 3 again, potentially PR and maybe, just maybe take a crack at that 2:55 # (in no particular order), well that wouldn't be so bad :-)


Brian, Were those 800s on a track or some approximation? If they were on a track, and you believe the Yasso theory, and you can work up to 2 more at that pace, you should be training for a 2:35 not a 2:55. I ran a 75 half recently, am aiming for a <2:40 marathon, and can only do 6x800 right now in barely under 2:40, let alone under 2:30. My 12x400 repeats w/100 recovery are only in the 74-77 range.
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#34 TDG

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:11 PM

Yea, Bill I think you're right about the Yasso theory. You're not the first one that I've heard this from either. When I was amping it up for Twin Cities in 2009, I ran a track workout in the weeks before the race and my 800's were right at 3:05 give or take and that was what I ended up with.

Brian, you should be pretty happy with those 800's; those times seem like good indicators.

#35 plug_kev

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:23 PM

Disagree. I think many people can run the 800s waaay faster than they can run a marathon. Although, I think it is a good workout and aiming for 2:35 is great... I think I could run that workout well on about 50 miles a week. It does not translate to a marathon predictor because fast people will do it faster and strong people might even do 800s slower.

The calculator may say a fast guy's 5k translates to a 2:40 but he won't run that unless he is doing the miles, miles, miles.

Bill you are probably the opposite aren't you? Your 5k probably predicts to a slower marathon or half but you run lots of pretty high heart rate miles so you can sustain.

#36 BrianD

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:39 AM

Brian, Were those 800s on a track or some approximation? If they were on a track, and you believe the Yasso theory, and you can work up to 2 more at that pace, you should be training for a 2:35 not a 2:55. I ran a 75 half recently, am aiming for a <2:40 marathon, and can only do 6x800 right now in barely under 2:40, let alone under 2:30. My 12x400 repeats w/100 recovery are only in the 74-77 range.


Bill - They were on the springwater and I was using my garmin to measure them. I'm not a set believer of the Yasso theory; for Boston I was in the 2:40 range for 8x800 and ran 2:57 (I'm more like Kevin in that I'm not totally positive they are a fair indicator). That being said, they were faster than anything I've done over the past two years so I see that as a positive sign. Of course, I also typically use 1/2 distance recovery for all my intervals (800-400, 400-200, etc.) so that may be too much (I was between 1:50-2:10 for recovery for this particular workout). A friend of mine who has run 2:40-2:50 in London the past five years has found that Yasso 800s with a 1 minute jog was a very accurate indicator for him. Of course YMMV, blah, blah blah :-).

75 half is a ways away for me; my PR was 2010 Vancouver Lake in 82 and change. Of course, I've run about 3 races in the past 18 months so potentially more racing would give me a better indicator of how low I could go.

Thanks for the input!
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"A bear with determination will defeat a dreamy gazelle every time" - s jurek
One day I may not be able to run. Today is not that day.

#37 billa

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:33 PM

As Kevin pointed out, I'm certainly no speed demon, as evidenced by my 16:45 on the track last Sunday. MacMillan's calculator equates that to 77:26/2:43:17, yet I've run 2:00 faster than that for a half recently. So I guess I should be able to run 16:20. Easier said than done! Maybe if I was doing those 800s with Brian, I would have. Anecdotally, I think the MacMillan calculator is somewhat optimistic in converting short race times to longer ones, given what I know about a number of people's PRs. Of course there are too many variables involved for those formulas to apply universally. But it's a good attempt. And of course for any of those conversions it assumes your training is distance-specific.

I agree with Kevin that of course results in short distance intervals and races don't automatically equate to long distance projections. Again, lots of variables, including people's natural propensity for distance, endurance, slow/fast twitch muscle mix, etc. And Yasso's theory also assumes you could only achieve your 10x800 min:sec in a marathon hrs:min with marathon-specific training to go along with it. I wouldn't suggest that 800s be the basis of anyone's marathon training, more like something to do at a few points during the training cycle to test yourself/gauge your progress. I have yet to experiment enough with these, but plan to during this training cycle.

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#38 innocentbystander

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:09 PM

I have yet to experiment enough with these, but plan to during this training cycle.

http://www.runnerswo...5-624-0,00.html

Here's some more workouts from Let's Run:
http://www.letsrun.c...?thread=2487659

I agree with both arguments presented for the 800 workout. Pretty well known workout, and as a heuristic, it seems to have some validity. I did this workout a couple times leading up to CIM last year and I think I ran them in 2:38'ish range, so for me it was close. So it can give you a rough idea, but by no means is it a guarantee. But dude, if I personally was doing that workout in the low 2:30 range, my next marathon would be :whistle: .

Also agree about the McMillian calculator. Using a time from a shorter, faster race to predict your marathon performance, you end up with some wonky times. But I'm guessing you'll get better results doing it with half marathon <---> marathon.

#39 andicamp

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:34 PM

I think of those calculators more as giving you equivalent performances rather than predicted performance, since almost no one is going to be able achieve the same level across the whole spectrum of distances. I still like looking at them, though. It's fun.
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2007 prs/races: 9/11

#40 BrianD

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 10:46 AM

NYC Week 2/20:

M- 12m LR @ 7:15 pace.
Tu- Off
W- 6.3m on trails @ 8:03
Th- 12 m w 7.68mi @MP/Tempo (up Hawthorne & down Clinton, hence the splits): 50:39 (6:38-6:54-6:59-6:31-6:32-6:20-6:19-6:35p)
F- Off
Sa- 6m @ 7:40
Su- 9.1m w/ 12x400 (200 recovery): 75-77-74-76-78-77-78-74-79-78-81-77

Week: 45.5
Core Work 5/7

A tough(ish) week. Monday & Saturday's runs were both in the hottest part of the day, I got punched by a homeless man on my tempo run and I helped by brother pack a 26 foot UHaul on Friday. Not surprisingly, even after a few cups of coffee this morning the 400's today sucked though they were at least relatively consistent. Definitely makes me feel that last week's 800's may have been an definite outlier though.

Next week should be relatively laid back; LR on Thursday and a short tempo run on Sunday. Good thing since we leave for Paris 11 days from now and there is still a lot to be done! For now though, it's almost noon hence a cocktail is calling my name!

Brian
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One day I may not be able to run. Today is not that day.

#41 plug_kev

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 04:41 PM

Week 1

30.75 miles

Week 2

Monday- 4 easy
Tuesday- 9.5 medium
Wednesday- 3 easy
Thursday- 6 easy
Friday- 11 Workout

3x400 (100r) in around 76 then 5x set of 600/300 in about 2:07/61 on Terwiliger Hill then 3x400 (100r) in about 75

Saturday- 3 easy
Sunday 8.5 medium

45 miles

Definitely easier this week.

#42 Ben F

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 05:16 PM

Mon: Run 6.8 (7:22), bike 16
Tue: Run 0, bike 17.5
Wed: Run 0, bike 16
Thu: Run 0, bike 16
Fri: Run 0, bike 16
Sat: Run 2 (7:15), bike 0
Sun: Run 11.3 (7:06), bike 0

Total run: 20.1
Total bike: 81.5
Books read: 0.37

Phase 1 complete. Moving on to phase 1.

I hammered it on the bike 3 days this week and felt pretty terrible all-around. My lack of mid-week running is from PT. I was told "no impact sports for a few days" after getting zapped. That was my last treatment for a while, so I'm going to attempt to swing back into normal base-building.

The effects of adding significant cycling to the mix has been surprising. I didn't expect to be as consistently drained as I am. When I started running today (Sunday) I wasn't sure if I'd make it past the first mile. I was huffing and puffing, kinda like that first run after a long time off, but then I started to feel great around the 2 mile mark. I'm sure I was running faster than I should, but I did feel great despite the rough start, even charging all the way up Barbur from the Blues Fest. We'll see how things go now that I intend to bike-commute every day and run 5 or 6 days this week. Now is a good time to un-fattify myself and get in shape. I supposedly signed up for some gimmick race in August...forgot the name.

#43 andicamp

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 09:47 PM

Week ending 7/03
Monday - 13 miles
TUesday - 12.5 miles w/ 16x400 (first two in 88, then mostly 85s with a few faster at the end)
Wednesday - 7 miles
Thursday - 6 miles
Friday - 17 miles
Saturday - off (traveling to New York)
Sunday - 7 (and then off to my brother's 3rd of July party on little Otisco Lake, which was AWESOME, and from which I just returned)

Total: 62.5

This week I learned a few things. One was that doing your long run after work on a Friday SUCKS. I'm not sure if it sucks more or less than doing your long at 5 am on a Saturday. It's a close call. I also learned that my iron has indeed dropped again. My new hematologist thinks I'm a venofer junkie, I can tell, but I don't give a shit as long as he gives me my fix!! :) Unfortunately I can't get my fix until I get back into town next week.

And I've come to the conclusion that I need to make a compromise between my old style of training and this new style of training that I've been trying for the past 7 weeks. I think it's good to try new things, but it's also important not to ignore the hard learned lessons I've already learned about my body. One of those lessons is that I don't recover as fast as most people. I don't know if this has to do with my inability to absorb vitamins and nutrients or something else entirely, but it's a fact that I've proven to myself many times over, so maybe I should accept it and stop re-proving it to myself. I think (I hope) I have a good compromise in mind. We'll see. It sucks a little bit because I like having a coach, but I'm not able to just buy into someone else's program 100% because I always end up gradually running myself into the ground. So I'm like, "Hey, I'd love for you to coach me, but really I'm going to be second-guessing you the whole way, so I hope that'll be fun for you too!" Ok, slight exaggeration, but you know what I mean.

Also, I saw Shawn Dailey (my PT) this week and left there with a beautiful set of bruised thighs. Good stuff. I also got to run on the Alter-G, which was kind of fun.

Anyway, I'm on vacation this week, so I'm basically a pretty happy camper. I spent most of the day today hopping in the lake and then lying on a raft and then playing this game where you get a bunch of people on the raft and try to tip as far up in the air as you can without falling off. And then we ate, lit flares, a bonfire, and big fireworks right off the dock. Possibly the most fantastic way to spend a day ever.
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2009 mileage: 2875
2008 mileage: 2436.5
2007 mileage: 2254.5
2010 prs/races: 1/7
2009 prs/races: 15/18
2008 prs/races: 12/17
2007 prs/races: 9/11

#44 Julie

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 08:24 PM

Monday 9 (5x200 meter hills repeats)
Tuesday 14
Wednesday 4 easy Volunteer with depaul
Thursday 9 Goose (went early and ran up to Wa park)
Fri 3 -just didn't feel like running
Sat 0 hiking/climbing
Sun 0 rest

Total 39

Recovery week.

#45 plug_kev

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 12:47 PM

Week1: 30.75 miles
Week2: 45 miles

Week3: Ending 7/10

Monday: 5 easy
Tuesday: 9 fartlek (6 or 7 pretty hard pickups between 300m-1000m)
Wedensday: 3 easy
Thursday: 7.5 medium
Friday: 9 w/ 5.25 done at tempoish pace on the track
Saturday: 4 easy
Sunday: 14 long

Total: 51 miles




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