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Spring/early Summer Marathon Training


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#61 Runman

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 10:13 AM

I strongly disagree. You will benefit from doing some fast intervals. The "you don't need to run any faster than x pace" train of thought is silly, in my opinion. You should strive for balance and for working on all aspects of your running, and from the looks of your training schedules over the past year, I'd say your coach thinks so too.

2:58 for the marathon equates to a VDOT of 54. The training intensity for that VDOT says 1200s at 4:25 and 400s at repetition pace in 82. You don't do volume work at R pace (it usually is capped at 5% of your weekly mileage or 3 miles), so you won't be doing many fast intervals. You'll do some, but you won't be running 1200s at R pace because the focus of such pace is anaerobic and therefore extremely demanding on the body. Your recovery is going to be up to 4x as long as the interval itself.

When you start to run faster than a defined pace it is either counterproductive, because you are working too hard and not recovering and hence not maximizing the benefit of the workout, or it is because you are getting fitter. You have to know when the faster pace is based upon fitness and not because of the thought "I want to get fast, therefore, I need to run faster."

The workout being discussed here equates to a 52 VDOT based on her 1200s and the fact she could not break 4:30. Interval pace of 4:33 per Daniels VDOT tables shows me a 52. The real issue here is the recovery time. 2:45 is pretty short for this and may be the determining factor in why she could not break 4:30. Recovery should have been around 4:30 after each interval.

Bottom line - Tim is correct about increasing the volume and not the speed, but that also means the pace of intervals will be slower. The key is to determine whether the workout is focused on anaerobic development (R pace with max interval of 800), VO2 Max which (I pace with max interval of 1200) or a threshold workout which is at tempo pace (T pace is 90% of VO2 Max). T pace is where you add the volume. If it is turnover you are working on then I or R pace may be proper. Most marathon plans focus less on R and I because your use of those components in a marathon is minimal, whereas 5K training will have a lot more R and I.

#62 lmtortor

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 12:23 PM

Interesting discussion. To be fair, that was not a planned workout. I was running by the track and felt the need to 'test' my speed. I am such a bad student sometimes. I like the fact that I can get solid numbers on the track that are easy to compare to past workouts.

I admit, I tend to just want to 'gun it' when I get on a track, bc I do not have many scheduled workouts there (and I love the track).

#63 andicamp

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 12:28 PM

Actually, Larry, I agree with pretty much all of what you said (has that ever happened before?).
I wasn't suggesting that LT should run her 1200s any faster, I was disagreeing with Tim's statement that she won't benefit from running faster than 6 minute pace. I might have mis-interpreted what he meant, if he was only talking about longer reps, rather than making a blanket statement.

My point was that you should always keep working on your leg speed. Just because you may never run that speed in a marathon doesn't mean you don't become more efficient overall by getting faster. And I think this would be especially true for LT, since she favors the longer distances and is therefore less developed at the speed-oriented stuff.
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#64 lmtortor

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 12:33 PM

And I think this would be especially true for LT, since she favors the longer distances and is therefore less developed at the speed-oriented stuff.
[/quote]


The above point is so true. I still haven't broken 19min in the 5K, but my longer distance times would suggest I should be able to. It makes me kind of sad.

#65 andicamp

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 12:35 PM

Racing track workouts is one of the hardest things to avoid. And if you're improving rapidly it can be hard to gauge whether your effort is appropriate. But you have to remember that each workout has a specific purpose.

Also, there's that age-old wisdom: you get better when you're resting/healing/recovering from the work you've done previously. If you don't let yourself recover, you don't get the benefit.
2010 mileage: 2929
2009 mileage: 2875
2008 mileage: 2436.5
2007 mileage: 2254.5
2010 prs/races: 1/7
2009 prs/races: 15/18
2008 prs/races: 12/17
2007 prs/races: 9/11

#66 lmtortor

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 01:21 PM

Racing track workouts is one of the hardest things to avoid. And if you're improving rapidly it can be hard to gauge whether your effort is appropriate. But you have to remember that each workout has a specific purpose.

Also, there's that age-old wisdom: you get better when you're resting/healing/recovering from the work you've done previously. If you don't let yourself recover, you don't get the benefit.




Yep. This week is all about easy miles. So painfully boring, but necessary. Next week I get to go up to 80 miles. woohoo! Then the schedule really starts to toughen. And I can't wait.

#67 Fidel

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 08:22 PM

Yes. Good discussion. Based on my experience, those long interval recoveries are okay for marathon training. Not so for 5k training.

#68 Runman

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:19 AM

My point was that you should always keep working on your leg speed. Just because you may never run that speed in a marathon doesn't mean you don't become more efficient overall by getting faster. And I think this would be especially true for LT, since she favors the longer distances and is therefore less developed at the speed-oriented stuff.

Pick up Run Faster by Brad Hudson. His adaptive training principles review this. One thing he is big on is finishing runs with some uphill strides. Usually 6-8 of them of 10 seconds each. These alone can active the necessary response in the muscles to aid in the development of speed.

#69 andicamp

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 07:33 PM

I have it. It's been a couple of years since I read it, but I recall liking most of the reading stuff but disliking the sample schedules. The only thing I really took from that book is thati sometimes do short hill sprints.
2010 mileage: 2929
2009 mileage: 2875
2008 mileage: 2436.5
2007 mileage: 2254.5
2010 prs/races: 1/7
2009 prs/races: 15/18
2008 prs/races: 12/17
2007 prs/races: 9/11

#70 Hockey Puck

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 10:55 AM

Week of Feb 6th

I had a really good week of volume and quality coming off my 24 miler last week. Hitting key workouts alone and feeling good about them builds a ton of confidence. Overall, I hit 90 miles this week which I haven't done for a block of marathon training since pre-2009 CIM. My schedule got changed up a little this week due to some travel but I ended up traveling only one day vs 2 therefore did some light tempo miles on Monday, MIle Repeat/Tempo on Friday, and then 15.3 mile faster than MP run.

Mon: 14 Miles (overall 7:12 Pace) Last 5 @ 6:44, 6:38, 6:24, 6:28, 6:31

Tues AM: Easy 10.34 mile run @ 7:29 pace
PM Easy 4 mile run @ 7:52
Total 14.34

Wed: 12 miles in 22 degree weather @ 7:57 pace (bottom of my shirt start freezing it was so cold)

Thursday: 5 Mile recovery run @ 8:10 pace

Friday:
2.2 Mile Warm up
Segment 1: (1x1mile @5:58 pace :60 Recovery 1x3miles@6:35) 19:47
Segment 2: (1x1mile @5:54 pace :60 Recovery 1x3miles@6:31) 19:34
Segment 3:( 1x1mile @5:52 pace :60 Recovery 1x3miles@6:29) 19:27
12 total for workout
Total 14.2

Saturday: 9.72 mile recovery at 8:27 pace (crawled)

Sunday: 20.8 miles with 15.3 @ 6:43 pace.

Total Weekly: 90.06

Core: 2/7 days

9 weeks to #bringit2012boston :super:
"Triumph over the adversity is what the marathon is all about. Therefore, you know that there isn't anything in life you can't triumph after that." - Kathrine Switzer

#71 Tim

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 02:55 PM

Goal race: Three Sisters Marathon, June 9th

Goals: C = < 3:30 (BQ), B = <3:10 (BQ-20mins.), A = < 3:00

Week of 02/05 - 02/11

Sun, 02/05: 15 miles @ 7:16/mile avg. Started slower, finished faster.

Mon, 02/06: usual day off running

Tue, 02/07: 2 mile warmup, 4 strides, 2 x 2 miles with 4:00 rest between (12:28, 12:30), 2 mile cooldown
Day's total = 8 miles

Wed, 02/08: 6 miles easy recovery - untimed

Thu, 02/09: 8 miles easy with last three miles @ 7:23, 7:16, 7:02 (slightly uphill)

Fri, 02/10: 18 mins. warmup, 8 x 2:00 on/2:00 off, 15 mins. cooldown.
Day's total = 8.7 miles @ 7:33/mile avg.

Sat, 02/11: 6 miles easy recovery - untimed

Weekly total = 52 miles (mileage PR for 2011/2012)

Weights/core on Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri

P.S. Bill, your Friday workout was RIDICULOUS. :blink: With stuff like that, if you don't break 3:00 by a HUGE margin, there's something wrong. :super:

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#72 Hockey Puck

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 03:29 PM

Goal race: Three Sisters Marathon, June 9th

Goals: C = < 3:30 (BQ), B = <3:10 (BQ-20mins.), A = < 3:00

Week of 02/05 - 02/11

Sun, 02/05: 15 miles @ 7:16/mile avg. Started slower, finished faster.

Mon, 02/06: usual day off running

Tue, 02/07: 2 mile warmup, 4 strides, 2 x 2 miles with 4:00 rest between (12:28, 12:30), 2 mile cooldown
Day's total = 8 miles

Wed, 02/08: 6 miles easy recovery - untimed

Thu, 02/09: 8 miles easy with last three miles @ 7:23, 7:16, 7:02 (slightly uphill)

Fri, 02/10: 18 mins. warmup, 8 x 2:00 on/2:00 off, 15 mins. cooldown.
Day's total = 8.7 miles @ 7:33/mile avg.

Sat, 02/11: 6 miles easy recovery - untimed

Weekly total = 52 miles (mileage PR for 2011/2012)

Weights/core on Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri

P.S. Bill, your Friday workout was RIDICULOUS. :blink: With stuff like that, if you don't break 3:00 by a HUGE margin, there's something wrong. :super:


That's a louis special. We (embree, louis and Matt) did that workout although I don't think I ever did 3 segments, just 2. That said, I'm running Boston to break 3 and then Cleveland a month later to hit the big PR. :-) We'll see what happens. Remember, I don't have the talent you had when you were my age. :-) Execution will be key on race day.
"Triumph over the adversity is what the marathon is all about. Therefore, you know that there isn't anything in life you can't triumph after that." - Kathrine Switzer

#73 lmtortor

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 04:48 PM

Yes, that Friday workout was SICK! I looked at it, and I think my eyes glazed over. Having said that, I totally want to try it.

Tim, you had a solid week too! I think a 3:30 would be like a jog for you. I bet you can get at least a 3:10, especially with this much time to whip your rear into shape, you lazy bum! (Insert emoticon here. I have a thing against them).

The word of the week for me was...apathetic. Pretty nice, huh? I knew it was a recovery week going in. I have a love-hate relationship with these weeks. The mental and physical break is fine, but I find I really miss that endorphin rush after a butt-kicking. I also had a particularly rough week work-wise. I worked a good number of evening-night shifts, and they were especially stressful and busy. My bed time was ranging between 2a and 4a, and even though I tried to sleep in, my annoying [usually] perky morning self got me up at 830 or earlier. It is amazing how poor sleep alone can negatively affect mood. I had to drag myself out the door almost every day with the exception of Sat. I felt like a rock star that day. I think because the shit-storm of a week was over.



So here it is:

Mon- 9.5 mi recovery
Tues- 10.2 easy, 7:41/mi
Wed- am 7 easy/ pm 3.5 easy (untethered to my friend, Garmin)
Thurs- am 8 miles easy, 7:30/mi; pm 3.25 mi easy, 7:43/mi
Fri- 10 miles Boston course. Totally uninspired. Thought about stopping at a bakery ~3mi out to eat a cupcake instead. Good thing I had no money
Sat- SO much better. 18.25 with last 8.5 at 7:01/mi (MP??)
Sun- off


total miles- 70+
plus lift x 3/core x 3/ cookies x ??


This week I have just 3 short days of work and a fun week of miles. Should hit 80. Also hoping to meet up w H Puck on Saturday or Sunday.

#74 Tim

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:26 PM

That's a louis special. We (embree, louis and Matt) did that workout although I don't think I ever did 3 segments, just 2. That said, I'm running Boston to break 3 and then Cleveland a month later to hit the big PR. :-) We'll see what happens. Remember, I don't have the talent you had when you were my age. :-) Execution will be key on race day.

Bill, how much recovery between the "segments"? Did you do this workout on the track or roads?

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#75 Tim

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:34 PM

Sat- SO much better. 18.25 with last 8.5 at 7:01/mi (MP??)

At least it was good timing to have your off week of running coincide with a tough week work-wise.

I did notice one error with your training week though. Your MP is actually 6:51/mi. :thumbsup:

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