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#1 BadAss

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 07:56 PM

I want to find a good criminal attorney to represent my daughter (age 15) who was "cited" for smoking a cigarette by the gestapos in Lake Oswego. I do not support smoking, at all, and I've made that VERY clear to my little delinquent. However, the purported reason for the cops "searching" my daughter is that, somewhere else in town, someone had reported a stolen pistol. Of course, my daughter, and her two friends had no such weapon in possession. They were peaceably sitting in a field, doing nothing except smoking a cigarette. Granted. two of them are minors and shouldn't be smoking. They were not, however, selling cigarettes to minors. The "probable cause" for "stopping" these youth, therefore, was a theft, somewhere else in the city. The fact that two of them had a cigarette in their hands resulted in a citation. Something clearly stinks, here, and I fully intend to take this one to trial, if necessary. So, if any of you know of a good criminal defense attorney, let me know. I'm goin' for the throat....and rippin' it out!
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#2 Jeff Huber

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 09:01 PM

Hey Brad, The tax atty I got thru the Oregon bar's referral service was awesome. You already know where to look, but I just wanted to let you know the referral service worked out well for me.

#3 BadAss

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 09:04 PM

QUOTE (Jeff Huber @ Jun 15 2006, 10:01 PM)
Hey Brad, The tax atty I got thru the Oregon bar's referral service was awesome. You already know where to look, but I'd just wanted to let you know the referral service worked out well for me.


Yeah...I'll fall back on the referral service (of which I'm a member) if I need to. I want a Gerry Spence, right now. I want someone to rip the lungs out of Lake O. I am beyond pissed. Maybe when I settle down, I'll see reality a little more clearly. Thanks, though...
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#4 timknox

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 09:06 PM

So you're saying it is a crime for a 15 year old to smoke in Lake Oswego. The 15 year old was caught red-handed smoking in Lake Oswego. And you're furious at the person who caught her. What am I missing? Wouldn't making her go before the judge teach her personal responsibility and be a better deterrent to her smoking than trying to bail her out?

#5 BadAss

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 09:34 PM

QUOTE (timknox @ Jun 15 2006, 10:06 PM)
So you're saying it is a crime for a 15 year old to smoke in Lake Oswego.  The 15 year old was caught red-handed smoking in Lake Oswego.  And you're furious at the person who caught her.  What am I missing?  Wouldn't making her go before the judge teach her personal responsibility and be a better deterrent to her smoking than trying to bail her out?


Your message sends some mixed signals. I do not agree that smoking is a "crime." It might be a stupid personal decision, but a crime it ain't. And, yes, I am furious at the trumped up and ridiculous excuse that the Lake O weenies used to bust my kid. I will make her go before a judge, not only to teach her personal responsibility, but also to teach her that our U.S. Constitution is a good and noble document that protects people like her and me, and you, against boneheads with badges.
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#6 Jeff Huber

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 09:44 PM

QUOTE (timknox @ Jun 15 2006, 10:06 PM)
What am I missing? 

Smoking isn't a good thing, but, in my mind, it drastically pales in comparison to an illegal search. I think by taking this seriously, Brad is giving his daughter a powerful lesson about the importance of civil rights, and letting his daughter know that as a person she has certain rights that should never be trodden over.

<...Edit to remove silly soapbox about demeaning laws...>



PS: This is all just IMHO, Tim. I have absolutely no qualifications to respond (seeing as I'm childless [so far]); I'm just trying to get warmed up for the Crawfish thread happy.png happy.png

#7 timknox

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 10:32 PM

Just think how boring message boards would be if we all agreed all the time.. happy.png

I wasn't there so I don't know how out of line the officer might have been. You could be absolutely right. As a parent my entire focus would be figuring out why the kid is smoking and how best to deter it. If you can accomplish your legal goals and handle the kid's smoking then great, but I'd be worried about sending a mixed message. Okay, I have opened myself up for the civil rights lecture...

Oh, and Jeff I do have qualifications as a parent. And I have zero qualifications as a civil rights crusader. After you have been a parent if you still say that your child's smoking pales in comparision to this "illegal search" then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

#8 Jeff Huber

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 11:32 PM

QUOTE (timknox @ Jun 15 2006, 11:32 PM)
Just think how boring message boards would be if we all agreed all the time..  happy.png

At the risk of being boring, I will admit I could not agree more with you on that statement Tim!

Cheers,

Jeff

#9 Diep

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 07:43 AM

I fail to see how it was a 'search' if they were sitting out in the open smoking. Am I missing something?

#10 NextLizard_Tiger Paul_*

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 07:44 AM

Does anyone ever listen to the "Lake O Police Blotter" on KPAM's Bob Miller show in the morning? They spend a few minutes every morning laughing hysterically and commenting on the "news" from Lake O...

Good luck with your court case and please let us know how it turns out... from what I understand Lake O will go to great expense to protect their way of life.. they've been real agressive against violators of their sign ordinances and there's been extensive litigation... fighting Lake O is probably like suing a tobacco company! happy.png

#11 NextLizard_draggin_*

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 08:12 AM

Slow morning at work today. Possession of tobacco by a minor is a violation under state law.

OFFENSES INVOLVING TOBACCO

167.400 Tobacco possession by minors prohibited. (1) It is unlawful for any person under 18 years of age to possess tobacco products, as defined in ORS 431.840.

(2) Any person who violates subsection (1) of this section commits a Class D violation. [1991 c.970 1; 1999 c.1051 161]

As to the stop or search issues -- I would think smoking a cigarette in a field would fall under the "in plain view" exceptions to those prickly probable cause analyses. If you are a minor and want to smoke, do it where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy -- not in public.

Personally, I think it's a shame that goverments legislate issues of common sense or personal responsibility. I also think that disciplining children is a parent's job. I understand your frustration.

If I am ever facing the death penalty I want Jenny Cook representing me. If I am ever charged with DUII, I want John Henry Hingson defending me. And if I ever need an appeal on a civil rights issue, I would use Tom Christ.

It will be much cheaper to pay the fine.

#12 steve sanders

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 08:15 AM

QUOTE (Diep @ Jun 16 2006, 08:43 AM)
I fail to see how it was a 'search' if they were sitting out in the open smoking.  Am I missing something?


The cigarette issue was all the probable cause for a search the officers needed. I guess I am missing something as well.

As a parent, I found the initial post about what to do with a child who fails to recognize authority interesting. What are we teaching them by not making them responsible for their actions?

The bottom line, if your commiting a crime in front of law enforcement, they won't simply ignore it. Right or wrong, agree with law or not, they will enforce it.

#13 Rick Lovett

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 08:56 AM

Hi Brad,

I admit to being one of the mystified ones, too, Brad. If the cigarette was in plain view, I doubt that they needed any excuse for the search. On the other hand, I had no idea that it was a crime for kids to be in possession of tobacco. I knew it was a crime to sell or give it to them, but I'd never heard of possession as an offense. Is that an Oregon quirk, or did all those smokin-in-the-bathroom kids in the schools of my youth court citations (as opposed to detention)?

Anyway, I'm with those who'd take a deep breath and think about it a week before spending a fortune. But I've also been told I'd make a crappy parent.

#14 Diep

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 09:06 AM

Your pops caught you smokin' and he says "No Way!"
That idiot runs 10 miles a day!

Your Mom busted in and said "What's that Noise?!"
Awww, Mom you're just jealous it's the BEA-STIE BOYS!


You gotta fight

(Bow Bow (think huge guitar riff))

For your right

to PAAAAAAR-TAY!

#15 NextLizard_Tiger Paul_*

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 09:32 AM

Hey if that's really the law, someone call the Tigard police! I met the wife for coffee a few weeks ago at a place at the corner of Hall & Durham in Tigard. Next door was a Plaid Pantry with about a dozen chain smoking teens from Tigard HS (across the street).

I thought it was disgusting to see all those kids doing that... (of course I'm hypocritical b/c I smoked off and on for many years starting in high school) but until today I had no idea it was against the law to so much as possess tobacco if you're under 18.

I'm all for civil liberties but I don't think smoking in public is a God-given right... besides being a health issue and generally a bad idea, it's also a public safety issue (fire hazard), air pollution and usually a littering problem as well.

But back to the issue at hand... legally speaking, if the above cited law is correct, you probably don't have a case unless the field in question was private property and the kids were invited to or resided on the property... even if that were true, the police still could use "in plain view" as a defense. Sounds like the real issue you have is with the state law, in which case you'd probably want someone like the ACLU or someone else who specialized in civil liberties issues. But with regards to minors, the state has a LOT more power to restrict their behavior than they do with adults. The courts have ruled that the state has a "compelling interest" to regulate minors which trumps your rights as a parent. It's the same power that allows them to snatch your kid away and put them in foster care.

You should definitely consult a lawyer all the same... it's always better to know what your options are and a good lawyer would be honest about your chances of prevailing...




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