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PAFAR in the snow (TEACUP series, 1/28-29)


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#31 TDG

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 01:41 PM

I can't believe that I'm getting sucked into this; but for the good of those who may actually be believing notarunner, here is something that I dug up:

In Athens, 2004, the olympic mens' 20k racewalk winner won the race in 1:19:40. Using the McMillan calculator, this interpolates to 37:47 in a 10k. (Which is damn fast for walking, and makes me feel pretty damn sluggish!!!!!) 37:47 pace for 10K is 3:46 per km.

In the same olympic games, the 10k winner ran a 27:05. Which is 2:42 per km.

This is a difference of 1:04 per km. Or, 64 seconds.

Earlier I posted the difference between the classic 51k and skate 51k at the Noqemenon Ski Marathon in Marquette, MI this winter. The classic winner's pace was 2:47 per km and the skate winner's time per km was 2:34.

This is a difference of 13 seconds per kilometer.

One of these days I am going to find the splits for the pursuit race and compare the classic legs to the skate legs.

Classic skiing may seem like hiking, because most people who try it pretty much walk along on the skis. But, going fast is a much different deal.

And any good Canadian should know this because they won a silver medal today in....

CLASSIC X/C.

#32 Jeff Huber

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 02:07 PM

QUOTE (notarunner @ Feb 13 2006, 03:25 PM)
!! Maybe you need to start tuning into european T.V. instead of Propaganda NBC.  Let's put it this way - no. 1 sport for US T.V. - halfpipe  No. 1 sport for Europe T.V. - Biathlon.  I wonder if people in Arkansas can actually pronounce that word.

And I hear the No. 1 Olympic spot in Canada is Curling (hahaha) wink.gif

Seriously Karl - Have you spent a lot of time at nordic areas in Europe? Well neither have I. But what I hear from other people who have is that classic is proportionate to the number of skiers more popular among the hardcode nordic types than it is in America. For example, if you go to Bend the vast majority of the avid nordic skiers are going to be skating but in Europe the ratio of avid nordic skiers doing classic vs skating would be more even. And most of the really hardcore nordic racers become proficient at both.

That said, when I go to nordic areas I always skate. I enjoy the mechanism of movement more, I can go faster and I don't have to worry about wax. But there's nothing wrong with diagonal stride either, the movement of which I do all the time when I'm backcountry skiing. And without question a good diagonal stride skier could easily beat me skating.

#33 notarunner

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 04:14 PM

QUOTE (Jeff Huber @ Feb 14 2006, 04:07 PM)
And I hear the No. 1 Olympic spot in Canada is Curling (hahaha) wink.gif 

Seriously Karl - Have you spent a lot of time at nordic areas in Europe? Well neither have I. But what I hear from other people who have is that classic is proportionate to the number of skiers more popular among the hardcode nordic types than it is in America. For example, if you go to Bend the vast majority of the avid nordic skiers are going to be skating but in Europe the ratio of avid nordic skiers doing classic vs skating would be more even. And most of the really hardcore nordic racers become proficient at both.

That said, when I go to nordic areas I always skate. I enjoy the mechanism of movement more, I can go faster and I don't have to worry about wax. But there's nothing wrong with diagonal stride either, the movement of which I do all the time when I'm backcountry skiing. And without question a good diagonal stride skier could easily beat me skating.


Ok I will acknowledge that if you classic at 100% its probably the same speed as skating. You have proven your point with the running vs speed walking. I believe that this now allows me to race Rick Lovett skating while he classics since you have proven that they are essentially the same.

#34 Rick Lovett

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 04:29 PM

QUOTE (notarunner @ Feb 21 2006, 05:14 PM)
Ok I will acknowledge that if you classic at 100% its probably the same speed as skating.  You have proven your point with the running vs speed walking.  I believe that this now allows me to race Rick Lovett skating while he classics since you have proven that they are essentially the same.


Nice try. When do we want to do this? I have a friend visiting from Japan from Feb 28-March 7, and don't know her schedule yet. She kind of wants to try skiing if it fits the rest of her schedule, so if we did it March 4, she might be free to join us. And it would give us good excuses for poor performances in the TRL 5-miler, the next day. Or we could try for this Saturday. What's your schedule, Karl?

#35 Win Goodbody

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 05:06 PM

Good to see notarunner continues to attract a swarm of challengers, whatever the sport. When this thread is exhausted, can we please get some heated sh**-talking going around badminton or darts?

This sounds like fun. All I have are waxless skis, but I'll try with those. Let me know when you decide to do this. I know David, aka, the Germantown Comet, will be there. Surely jhuber will join in.

Speaking of 50K and skiing in the same sentence, what about inaugurating a new wingnut TRL spring ski race tradition - an open race around Crater Lake on the ski setup of your choice. Bring your touring, skate, back country or whatever secret setups (snow shoes will only be allowed by special permission under Oregon's Assisted Suicide laws). In a normal year, optimal time for this would be May, or as late as possible before they plow the road.

This could be a blast. Maybe there already is a secret race like this going on. There certainly SHOULD be an annual NW tradition like that. No doubt the Park Service would seek to quash if it became known. That's ok - we specialize in giving the authorities something to worry about...

In the right conditions, this would be a real thrill. I did it last April in about nine hours, but that was in sloppy conditions. In the ideal melt freeze cycle with an early start, you could skate much of the circuit. Who knows how fast you could do it. There are huge ups and downs.

I think we should do it. Every competitor carries their own supplies etc. The gun goes off around 4 AM, and whoever limps back into the South Rim parking lot first wins an espresso milk shake in Ashland.





#36 Rick Lovett

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:40 PM

This would be fun...if it's not too technical. Some years you need metal edges and guts, I've heard. Though in corn snow conditions that's probably not the case.

In shorter order, how about the John Craig Mail Carry. About 42 km across McKenzie Pass. I've done this twice, and it's a blast. Not a timed event, though. And a snowmobile club breaks trail for it, which is actually a disadvantage because you wind up trying to classic/skate on a single snowmobile-width pass. But the scenery....

And of course John Craig died in his first attempt, so there's always that prospect....

Typically it's the last Saturday in March or first in April. I forget which, but Google would know. And hey, that's a 4,000-foot hill! Can anyone say quadruple Goose?

#37 TDG

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 08:45 AM

Man, I've always wanted to ski around Crater Lake! It's one of those must-do things. Maybe, just maybe, I can swing it this year if you guys set something up. Keep me posted. If not Crater Lake, then definitely the John Craig Mail Carry. The date is tentatively set for April 1st.


Tell me how the Germantown Comet got his name! I envision him flying down Germantown Road on roller skis. Crazy. It reminds me of a book by Pete Vordenberg called "Momentum: Chasing the Olympic Dream". I highly recommend it; it's basically an autobiography of Pete Vordenberg, telling about his competitive x/c ski racing career. One tale he tells is how they used to climb up a long mountain road (up near Trout Lake, WA) on roller skis, then bomb down at speeds near 60 mph (they measured this by timing themselves between mile posts).

#38 Win Goodbody

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:31 AM

The race Rick mentions does sound fun.

The following page has not been updated, but race appears to be Saturday, April 1 this year.

http://www.tumalolan...g_memorial.html

+++

It's actually from Germantown, PA - where David went to high school in Philadelphia.

#39 notarunner

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:33 AM

QUOTE (Rick Lovett @ Feb 21 2006, 06:29 PM)
Nice try. When do we want to do this? I have a friend visiting from Japan from Feb 28-March 7, and don't know her schedule yet. She kind of wants to try skiing if it fits the rest of her schedule, so if we did it March 4, she might be free to join us. And it would give us good excuses for poor performances in the TRL 5-miler, the next day. Or we could try for this Saturday. What's your schedule, Karl?


Rick...what do you mean nice try. Are you disputing what TDG and all the other "followers" are saying. I am confused. I just relinquished, changed my mind accepted defeat. Similar to what happened in 1776.

#40 notarunner

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:48 AM

OK Rick..here's my schedule. I would be available on either March 4 or 11. I would rather we make it late (i.e. 2pm) so that I can ride that day. I am cycle racing on both Sundays so I need to ride at least an hour on the Sat. Let me know what works for you.

#41 Rick Lovett

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 06:24 PM

Hmm, re March 4, I have to check with my friend, who's due in on Tuesday for one week. I probably won't know until then. March 11 should be open.

Can you bike in the PM? By March, we've got the potential of serious slush in the afternoon. Also the track can get pretty wiped out. On the other hand, if we're in slush/freezeup conditions, PM might be better. Let's not make this a gut-check on broken bones if it's frozen.

Let's tentatively schedule the 4th. Weather can nix this. Odds are that my friend would love the trip. And that way if something goes wrong, we have a fall-back.

#42 Rick Lovett

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 06:25 PM

Cycle racing on the 12th? So notarunner is notashamrock, either. You're conceding the field to all the women?

#43 Rick Lovett

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Posted 08 March 2006 - 08:18 AM

So, are we on this weekend? I'll sacrifice my Shamrock time to this event. (OK, so it makes a good excuse!). We're supposed to get lots of low snow today. Earlier is better on Saturday, but I'll meet you at whatever time you want. Skis waxed at 20 paces.

#44 Win Goodbody

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Posted 08 March 2006 - 09:37 AM

Why don't you hold the competition in the John Craig Mail Carry event on April 1?

#45 Rick Lovett

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Posted 08 March 2006 - 03:03 PM

I don't want to race the John Craig. If I do it, I'll tour it. But the last time I did it, it was a perfect day and I hung out in the sun at the summit for 90 min. Also, unless they've changed, it's more a backcountry style course than classic racing, up to the final descent. No groomed track; you're following packed snowmobile tracks. Very weird stuff to ski on: too narrow to skate, hard to classic. Or have they realized that the snowmobile club that does this as a favor isn't actually doing much benefit? (It's hard to tell people who think theyr'e helping and go out of their way to do it that actually they're hindering!)




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